Author Topic: Things failling unexpectedly (Read 5825 times)

JoyceClayton · « **Reply #30 on:** December 20, 2011, 03:51:53 AM »

"True Art Is Angsty

"I think we ought to read only the kind of books that wound and stab us. If the book we are reading doesn't wake us up with a blow on the head, what are we reading it for?"

—Franz Kafka

The experts have spoken! Only the grimmest of tragedies can effectively explore the fragility of human life, the crushing agony of love and regret, and other life-defining themes, such as why mommy never really loved you and the ultimate futility of happiness. Any story with an unambiguously Happy Ending is a piece of cheap commercial tripe.

Naturally, nobody's really the good guy in these stories, but if there is a sympathetic viewpoint character, don't expect their suffering to be the prelude to an ultimate triumph. No, they've got to be traumatized for life, or even killed off, along with their friends. And heck, if there is a bad guy, why not let 'em win and get away with it scot-free while we're at it? That ought to drive home the message that life is suffering.

At its worst, angst-art parades suffering and loss as a fashionable (and profitable) affectation. Furthermore, it has often been noted that a correlation can be detected between how angsty a work is and how many awards it picks up. On the bright side, audiences have a limit of how much angst they're willing to take from people who don't exist. Among some, paint-by-numbers angst has led to such a Three Chords and the Truth-style backlash that any work on the cynical end of the Sliding Scale of Idealism Versus Cynicism is disregarded, and any character who shows signs of depression is immediately labeled "emo" and "angsty." Whilst this response might itself be fairly cynical, given the truly absurd lengths that some creators go in pursuit of this ideal, can you blame them?

One justification offered for this trope is that life really is suffering, or, at the very least, that the purpose of art is to confront suffering. But only the absurdly cynical or pretentious would claim that moments of joy don't exist and are unworthy of being represented in art. This trope is reserved for those who somehow find happy moments less respectable than angsty ones...."

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/TrueArtIsAngsty

Mariposa, (KnJ) · « **Reply #31 on:** December 20, 2011, 03:58:32 AM »

Definition of CHOICE

1: the act of choosing : selection

They chose to suffer! I am sorry if you don't understand the definition of "CHOICE".

I have proven that T.E. did NOT suffer......unless you are UNABLE TO READ!

And as far as "who" or "what" is responsible for dying........that is not for me to say, ask God or whomever you believe in....I am sure they will tell you.

All I know is......Dying is a FACT of life........EVERYTHING dies at some point.....if it is a living, breathing organism it DIES!!

I believe you are attempting to bait me into some sort of debate about beliefs in God or a higher power and frankly that too is a personal choice (to believe in whatever we choose.) I could say I believe in God and then there might be some argument against that belief and so on and so forth........I don't CHOOSE......to participate in that DEBATE.

I also DO NOT CHOOSE to suffer for my art!!

If someone else does, that is their choice........we all have free will to choose whatever path we want to take in life and what ever beliefs we want to believe in!!

You choose to suffer for your art.........I don't!!

It is what it is. It doesn't require argument or debate.

tereza · « **Reply #32 on:** December 20, 2011, 04:00:13 AM »

Quote from: lilly on December 20, 2011, 03:31:23 AM

I think it is not a good idea to make a generality of it, people look at arts in a different way. I don't think suffering is always "caused" by arts or the mastering of an art, a lot of people are already tortured and use arts as an outlet to their suffering.

I agree. Art is so subjective anyway. A lot of what's considered great or genius isn't always a direct result of hard work/suffering, talent or even skill. Like Duchamp's urinal which is in all the art history textbooks and is considered revolutionary, that definitely was not a result of suffering or hard work. Also, if you look back at all the old masters, they were all male. There were plenty of female artists of equal talent who probably suffered or worked as hard and will never be recognized as great. So no, I don't think in art, suffering = success or greatness.

But there are certain things that will need work and persistence. Like if I wanted to operate on people, then yeah I need to put in some work to learn how to do that. If I wanted to be a body builder, sitting around probably won't help. But I don't really think that has to include suffering also. Maybe some challenging situations, but not suffering. If you were suffering, then I've got to wonder if that's something you should be pursuing or question how you're handling things.

Life doesn't have to be that way unless you want it to.

2thetop · « **Reply #33 on:** December 20, 2011, 04:03:31 AM »

ya see i dont think any of those people would view what they did as suffering. they may have had hardships, as everyone does, but what they did in their life was because they decided to look at failing as a lesson instead of a beating. its ok joyce. we all have our own opinions. i know since i took on the one i described things come easier and im much happier. so ill stick with my point of view. its just sad to see someone think they have to suffer. you just dont.

JoyceClayton · « **Reply #34 on:** December 20, 2011, 04:38:09 AM »

"To perceive is to suffer."

- Aristotle (384 BC - 322 BC)

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"Never to suffer would never to have been blessed."

- Edgar Allan Poe (1809 - 1849)

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"Character cannot be developed in ease and quiet. Only through experience of trial and suffering can the soul be strengthened, ambition inspired, and success achieved."

- Helen Keller (1880 - 1968)

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"You desire to know the art of living, my friend? It is contained in one phrase: make use of suffering."

- Henri-Frédéric Amiel

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"The reward of suffering is experience."

- Aeschylus

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"I am a great artist and I know it. The reason I am great is because of all the suffering I have done."

- Paul Gauguin

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"Great artists suffer for the people."

- Marvin Gaye

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"A great artist... must be shaken by the naked truths that will not be comforted. This divine discontent, this disequilibrium, this state of inner tension is the source of artistic energy."

- Johann Wolfgang von Goethe

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"You've got to take the bitter with the sour."

- Samuel Goldwyn

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"Painting is nothing more than bleeding on the canvas."

- Andrew Hamilton

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"Perhaps for some people, in order to first find their passion they need to suffer, just to uncover what is of prime importance, and then the suffering itself can create emotional energy i.e. passion, which then fuels their work."

- Margot Hattingh

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"Forget your personal tragedy. We are all bitched from the start and you especially have to be hurt like hell before you can write seriously. But when you get the damned hurt, use it - don't cheat with it."

- Ernest Hemingway

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"There is no birth of consciousness without pain."

- Carl Jung

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"The mediocre-minded do not suffer much for what they produce. That is why what they produce is always mediocre"

- Joyce Clayton

JoyceClayton · « **Reply #35 on:** December 20, 2011, 04:44:29 AM »

"Character cannot be developed in ease and quiet. Only through experience of trial and suffering can the soul be strengthened, ambition inspired, and success achieved."

- Helen Keller (1880 - 1968)

MY COMMENT:

I was truly surprised to find this quote by Helen Keller. I was under the impression that she was famous for bumping into and stumbling over things. What a surprise! No, really. I never knew that Helen Keller was this intelligent and wise. And it's all the fault of those Helen Keller segments on the animated comedy program: Family Guy

Scenes like this one:

http://youtu.be/0EfGoXiLGrc

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tereza · « **Reply #36 on:** December 20, 2011, 04:57:46 AM »

Those quotes don't really prove anything other than that people want to give meaning to the bad things they went through.

Is that what you're also trying to do? Give meaning to how hard things are for you?

Quote from: JoyceClayton on December 20, 2011, 04:38:09 AM

"Perhaps for some people, in order to first find their passion they need to suffer, just to uncover what is of prime importance, and then the suffering itself can create emotional energy i.e. passion, which then fuels their work."

- Margot Hattingh

This quote is rather interesting since she said "Perhaps for some people", but didn't say for all. Which is pretty much what I think people have been trying to say in this thread. For some people suffering is necessary, but not for all.

JoyceClayton · « **Reply #37 on:** December 20, 2011, 05:10:05 AM »

We all agree about the importance of suffering properly endured to grow stronger and to create true greatness. I am an expert in martial arts and have suffered through MANY injuries to get as good as I am. I am an expert guitar player (when I practice) I used to perform professionally and it took a hell of a lot of pain for me to get that good. Whatever excellent thing I may produce requires suffering properly endured. Yes, even the friggin yard-work. And I hate washing dishes, but I must suffer through it and do my best to like it for whatever I may choose to do I strive to treat everything equally in that I strive for excellence in my work.

If you can clean the house without suffering teach me your secret! Why is it that I don't want to do it? Because it's pleasant??

tereza · « **Reply #38 on:** December 20, 2011, 05:11:29 AM »

Quote from: JoyceClayton on December 20, 2011, 05:10:05 AM

If you can clean the house without suffering teach me your secret!

It's called hiring a maid or having someone else do it for you.

JoyceClayton · « **Reply #39 on:** December 20, 2011, 05:16:18 AM »

Why should I if it doesn't cause me to suffer? (((YOU))) do NOT clean the house by hiring a maid!

Maybe I should hire someone to do my workouts for me as well.

BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!

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tereza · « **Reply #40 on:** December 20, 2011, 05:27:51 AM »

Well the goal was for me to get the house clean. If I hire someone, then I'm getting it cleaned as I'm paying for the cleaning.

Anyway, I hope I'm not coming across as mean or trying to start a fight. This thread has been oddly fun for me. It's a good exercise in reminding myself of how I want my life to be. It also reminded me of this article:

http://www.jonathanfields.com/blog/when-did-you-stop-sniffing-glue/

Quote

When Did You Stop Sniffing Glue?

A few days ago, Chris Brogan posed an interesting question on twitter:

Then, the next day, another friend, Charlie Gilkey, asked:

Now, I get that these two very wise guys were asking these questions on two levels….

One, because they wanted to see how you’d answer. And, two, because they wanted to:

Incite those who saw the question to examine their assumptions.

And, probably, three, they wanted to see how many people would go that deep (at least, that’s what I’d really be curious about).

Thing is, within Chris’ and Charlie’s questions lie a bigger lesson.

It’s about the questions we ask ourselves every day. Because the WAY you frame the questions you ask yourself often determines not only what your perceived options are, but what your final answer will be. And, if you’re not too careful, your questions may lock you into false answers, actions and beliefs.

What does THAT mean?

Okay, let me don my rather rusty recovering lawyer‘s hat for a bit.

In the law, there’s a principle, actually its the basis of a courtroom objection, called “assuming facts not in evidence.” In regular-people-speak, that means phrasing a question in a way that assumes certain facts or circumstances that have not yet been introduced, proven and, in fact, may be entirely false.

In NLP, these are given yet another fancy name – presuppositions. And, certain practitioners intentionally load up questions and statements with presuppositions because they know it overloads a certain part of the brain (more on this in a future post) and drops you into a far more suggestable state.

The title of this post does that. As do Chris and Charlie’s questions.

So, when I asked:

“When did you stop sniffing glue,”

I assumed a bunch of facts that are likely (I hope) not true. Among those are:

At some point in the past, you sniffed glue
You’ve now stopped sniffing glue

Looking at Chris’ question –

Would you take obscurity and wealth over social engagement and struggling?

…the main assumed facts are:

You know what obscurity, wealth, social engagement and struggling mean
You can have obscurity and wealth OR social engagement and struggling, BUT not both
You would choose either over some other unmentioned option

And, with Charlie’s question –

Would you rather have a page that converts at 10% but repels the rest or converts at 2% but keeps the funnel open?

The primary assumptions are:

You know what a page that converts and a funnel are.
You can have a page that converts at 10% but repels OR one that converts at 2% but keeps the funnel open BUT you cannot have both
You have to choose either over some other unmentioned option.

Now, what happens if we test the assumptions underlying each of the three questions?

We find out most are somewhere between dead wrong kinda wrong. They assume facts aren’t true and present answer choices as if they were your ONLY choices when, in fact, there are myriad others. That makes the questions themselves loaded and largely unanswerable, as is.

When you drill down to the assumptions, it becomes pretty clear, pretty quickly…you’ve been set up.

That’s not a bad thing in the context of Chris’ and Charlie’s questions. Because part of their intent was to make you think. To make you question the question.

Problem is, in daily life, a whole lot of people never drill down and test the assumptions that underlie the questions they ask themselves every day.

They just accept the questions as is. And, in doing so, they never discover how they’re setting themselves up. How they’re limiting their answers to the ones framed by the questions. And, ending up somewhere between confused, boxed-in and paralyzed.

The classic career question that does this is:

Would you rather be rich but bored silly or poor but love your work?

The question assumes you can’t be rich AND love your work. And, if you don’t kick the question’s tires, you fall into the trap of assuming the two options presented are your only ones.

So, my question for you is…

Have you stopped asking questions that give you bad answers yet?

Maybe, it’s time to kick the tires…

JoyceClayton · « **Reply #41 on:** December 20, 2011, 05:28:24 AM »

TEREZA WROTE:

"Like Duchamp's urinal which is in all the art history textbooks and is considered revolutionary..."

MY COMMENT:

A urinal?

A urinal in a textbook. Heck, that's a new one on me!

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lise · « **Reply #42 on:** December 20, 2011, 05:30:08 AM »

Bloody he'll Joyce what you got there, the bumper book of suffering quotes? You've not actually selected people known for their positive outlook to quote though have you? Poe and Goethe for example their work is known for it's darkness. But Jung had plenty more to say and it wasn't all doom and gloom. I get your point that some great artists suffered and maybe this are the ones whose work you like the most which influences your opinion?

I don't suffer doing things I'm great at. I do suffer doing housework, yet still manage to only do a mediocre job!

lise · « **Reply #43 on:** December 20, 2011, 05:33:51 AM »

Feel free to re arrange the above post into proper sentences! The iPad chose to rearrange some of them for me.

Mariposa, (KnJ) · « **Reply #44 on:** December 20, 2011, 05:43:20 AM »

It amazes that someone who claims to know so much about great artists, and claims to be an artist herself, has NEVER read an Art History book!! Gotta wonder about that??

When I studied art, art history was a requirement!!

Seeing the quotes though, she obviously knows how to you Google......let's see "Suffering quotes!" Genius!!! LOL!!!

Shall we counteract with a "Positive Quotes" search?

Nah.....why bother? They would most definitely out number the suffering quotes!

But then again, the LAW OF ATTRACTION is more about positivity........not about SUFFERING!!